| Author |
Message |
Robert Schlabbach
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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"David Lowndes" <davidl@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:5k0pm1dg4he8blrje7g6aiiae1115b54vl@4ax.com...
| Quote: | As CJSnet said:
"It is simple, for example with a recent issue, here is all the info
you need:
ITV4 AND SKY HAVE LAUNCHED 2 NEW CHANNELS IN THE UK BUT THEY DON'T
APPEAR ON THE EPG FOR TELEWEST LONDON
"
The same applies for FreeView too, so it's obviously a common issue.
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And that's probably what makes it so hard to fix. If it was a wrong channel
on only one lineup, that'd be an easy one. But this appears to affect
pretty much all lineups in the UK. How many of those did Chris say there
were? 16,000? Would you want to go through 16,000 lineups and update
them...? Now if you think "bah, I'll just do search&replace" - what if that
operation goes wrong and ends up wrecking 16,000 records...? Then you'll
have a real problem.
I'm afraid Microsoft has to be very cautious about such MAJOR changes
(simple as they may seem to the individual), and that's what makes it take
so long...
Regards,«
--
Robert Schlabbach
e-mail: robert_s@gmx.net
Berlin, Germany |
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Nigel Barker
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:17:38 +0100, "Robert Schlabbach" <robert_s@gmx.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "David Lowndes" <davidl@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:5k0pm1dg4he8blrje7g6aiiae1115b54vl@4ax.com...
As CJSnet said:
"It is simple, for example with a recent issue, here is all the info
you need:
ITV4 AND SKY HAVE LAUNCHED 2 NEW CHANNELS IN THE UK BUT THEY DON'T
APPEAR ON THE EPG FOR TELEWEST LONDON
"
The same applies for FreeView too, so it's obviously a common issue.
And that's probably what makes it so hard to fix. If it was a wrong channel
on only one lineup, that'd be an easy one. But this appears to affect
pretty much all lineups in the UK. How many of those did Chris say there
were? 16,000? Would you want to go through 16,000 lineups and update
them...? Now if you think "bah, I'll just do search&replace" - what if that
operation goes wrong and ends up wrecking 16,000 records...? Then you'll
have a real problem.
I'm afraid Microsoft has to be very cautious about such MAJOR changes
(simple as they may seem to the individual), and that's what makes it take
so long...
|
If it is indeed the case that there are so many lineups for the UK alone then
there has been a serious design error rendering the whole EPG process needlessly
complicated. As I think I stated in another posting in the UK there are just
four sources of TV
1) Analogue terrestrial
2) Digital terrestrial
3) Sky digital satellite
4) Cable from NTL or Telewest (these companies are merging soon)
I have no experience of cable but do know that for all the other TV sources all
of the programme guide for every single user of that source will be identical
except for perhaps 30 minutes of regional news programmes on the channels BBC1 &
ITV1. So a single EPG listing for all would be >99% accurate even if the region
defaulted to London. Adding an option to choose which BBC or ITV region you were
in for the regional opt outs would make the guide 100% accurate. Then instead of
maintaining thousands of lineups there would be one lineup with two variables.
--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
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David Lowndes
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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ITV4 guide data has now started to appear.
Sky3 is still showing Sky Travel programming though.
Dave
--
MVP VC++ FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/vcfaq |
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David Lowndes
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:14 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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| Quote: | But this appears to affect
pretty much all lineups in the UK. How many of those did Chris say there
were? 16,000? Would you want to go through 16,000 lineups and update
them...?
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No of course not. I would have wanted to have had the whole design
scrapped before it got into production if it's like that. :(
Dave
--
MVP VC++ FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/vcfaq |
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Robert Schlabbach
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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"David Lowndes" <davidl@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:2gtpm1t13ais265the5ofc7q5h9t88lrfm@4ax.com...
| Quote: | But this appears to affect pretty much all lineups in the UK.
How many of those did Chris say there were? 16,000? Would you
want to go through 16,000 lineups and update them...?
No of course not. I would have wanted to have had the whole design
scrapped before it got into production if it's like that. :(
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Remember that it is a _US_ design, and it appears to be working quite well
for the USA (as seen by the lack of complaints here). Microsoft is still
going through a learning curve when it comes to European TV, which turned
out to be quite a bit more different from US TV than just PAL/SECAM and
Teletext vs NTSC and CC...
The current design apparently doesn't work too well for Europe - as you can
tell from Chris' messages, he's trying to fix that. But any changes to a
"live system" have to be made very cautiously to minimize the risk of a
complete outage (which, if you think of it, would still be worse than the
current situation). And I assume because of that, every suggested change
has to be weighed carefully against using "workarounds" within the current
system, so Chris will have to present a _very_ good case to the decision
makers. So help him best you can by keeping the EPG error reports coming...
Don't expect any quick results, though.
Regards,«
--
Robert Schlabbach
e-mail: robert_s@gmx.net
Berlin, Germany |
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Martin Kirk
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:27 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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""Chris Hill [MSFT]"" wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Martin,
The general issue is that the EPG is a "new" concept to many people.
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Apparently within Microsoft!
| Quote: | In the software industry when you approve something and its released to the
public you go to the next project.
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I think you just wexplained a lot about Microsoft's support practices in
general. :)
| Quote: | That is not reality with the EPG. Once
its available to the public you need to spend even more time working with
it to keep everything up to date. This is more of an educational process
that is taking place. If the contact information were provided, this would
end up reverting to the way it was previously where there wasn't anybody
here that could suggest the needed changes. Is that something you really
|
I was just joking, hence the :)
If you want a serious suggestion, provide all the relevant people with an
MCE istallation at home. Then, when they start getting grief from their
familes, perhaps they will understand. I know that when TiVo launcehed they
gave a lot of complimentary systems to dictributors and retailers in an
attempt to ensure that they "got it". It is clear that there are people in MS
who just don't "get it" , and I imagine that is part of the problem that you
are trying to solve.
I know that you have been getting a fair bit of stick here, but we fdo
appreciate that you are trying to solve the probelms. it is just that the
level of frustration is very high. If all EPG suppliers had the same problem,
it would be different, byt this seems to be something that is close to being
unique for MS.
Keep up the good work.
Martin |
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Martin Kirk
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:27 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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Sky Digital BBC Scot/ITV Grampian
(which was in my report via the website).
However, please note that these errors will affect EVERY Sky sunscriber
across the whole country, unless MS has been applying changes based on the
error reports just to the configuration identified by the users BBC/ITV
region (which would be insane).
Martin |
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sanderton
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:35 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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""Chris Hill [MSFT]"" wrote:
| Quote: |
Yes, the report does need to come from the MCE system itself.
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WHAT!!!!!
You mean all the error reports I've submitted have not been valid?
My MCE system is a TV system plugged into a CRT TV; I can't use the EPG
error system on it sensibly. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. That IS what MCE
is for isn't it????
That is plain ridiculous.
You appear to have something fundamentally wrong with the way this data is
put together.
I can imagine that cable is a little more complex, but how you can miss
channels on Freeview and Sky is beyond me. TiVo gives you the complete list
for each platform and lets you manually pick the ones you want. It adds new
ones without fail on the day they go to air, if not before.
The suggestion made above that you should get a TiVo (or three, for Sky,
Freeview and Cable) is not a frivolous one. Whenever a new channels is added
or a numbering changes it creates an alert message. All you'd have to do is
turn it on every morning to get a list of the new channels coming out. A few
hundred quid for a lot of happier customers.
Still, at least you're down to two major errors on the Freeview plaform -
ABC1 has teh Sky listings (24hrs; on Freeview its daytime only) and Sky
Travel is still listed instead of Sky Three.
And please don't ask me for my postcard or headend. It's Freeview - it's
probably the most popular MCE input and its national. |
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David Lowndes
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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| Quote: | In the software industry when you approve something and its released to the
public you go to the next project.
I think you just wexplained a lot about Microsoft's support practices in
general. :)
|
Sadly that practice seems to occur in many software development
organisations, often with the result that the revered developers
who've shipped a product move on to pastures new and never learn the
painful impact their decisions have caused others - and they go on to
repeat them. :(
Dave |
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David Lowndes
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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| Quote: | My MCE system is a TV system plugged into a CRT TV; I can't use the EPG
error system on it sensibly. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.
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Rest assured, you're not alone.
Also don't forget the majority of users won't have the foggiest idea
they can report a problem, and others who'll just assume the problem
is as plain as the nose on your face and that "they" (MS/whoever) will
already be aware of the problem and it'll be fixed soon.
Dave |
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Robert Schlabbach
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:28 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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"CJSnet" <usenet@TEETHthe-simpson.tv> wrote in message
news:e3toBU94FHA.3908@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | When I posted the issues that started this thread, I waited
WEEKS AND WEEKS.
As soon as I e-mailed Judit at BDS the errors were fixed
THE NEXT DAY.
|
CJS, (I think your name is Chris, too, so I'll use your initials to avoid
confusion) - how do you know that your e-mail to Judit had anything to do
with the timing of the fix?
From what I understand, the processes are so that it takes a couple of days
for a fix to be "checked in". If that is true, it is IMPOSSIBLE that your
e-mail led to the fix the next day.
Instead, it may indeed have been as Chris said: Your reports _had_ been
received and were checked in. When you e-mailed Judit, she looked it up and
found that the fix would go live the next day, so that's what she told you.
So your e-mail did *NOT* trigger the fix, it would have gone live the next
day anyway.
| Quote: | The bottom line is, your method does not produce any results.
|
The bottom line is that you CANNOT KNOW if your method affected the process
in ANY way. Only someone at Microsoft or BDS could know for sure. While I
don't really want to encourage you to uselessly increase the workload to
BDS anymore, maybe you might want to ask Judit again if it was your e-mail
report that resulted in the fix, or if the fix was already in the system to
go live the next day.
If it turns out to be the latter, come back, apologize to Chris, and NEVER
EVER e-mail BDS directly again.
Regards,«
--
Robert Schlabbach
e-mail: robert_s@gmx.net
Berlin, Germany |
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Jason Tsang
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:28 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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The Watson Error Reporting dll is suppose to collect the headend information
(at least it does for US/Canada EPG and STB submission forms).
--
Jason Tsang - Microsoft MVP
Find out about the MS MVP Program -
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx |
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CJSnet
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:28 am Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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""Chris Hill [MSFT]"" <a-chill@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:ZUpk7Db4FHA.3136@TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | Its not a cop-out but a statement of facts. I don't like having 94% of
the
issue reports missing data. I really wish that I had the information need
|
The EPG form doesn't even ask for a headend ID you know? So how can not
giving it mean the error is ignored?
| Quote: | Using your example what is the headend ID for TeleWest London? How about
all the other headends used throught England and Ireland that need these
channels added? That is how this information is generated by the
broadcasters themselves, not by the provider name. I can find out the
Headend ID for TeleWest but it takes me almost 15 minutes to dig through
the different databases that we receive to locate it. It takes BDS even
|
Customers shouldn't have to spend that 15 mins for you. I am sure the issue
is BDS inaccuracy. Like others here say, digiguide, Tivo, etc. don't have
these issues! Why are there legal problems for only Microsoft, and everyone
else seems to sail through without a hiccup?
I had Tivo for years and it was never anything like this bad, in fact it was
99.9% perfect!
| Quote: | If you e-mail issues directly to BDS it generally will end up adding
around
4 days to the solution as the e-mail is sent to me and I have to send it
to
a tester to get the required information such as Headend & Broadcaster ID
that is used by the databases. This information is collected by the tool
when you use a MCE system to file the bug and shortens the time I need to
get the bug fixed.
|
This is the sort of thing I am picking up from you that I am angry about. I
didn't mean any offence, I was angry. Mr Angry Customer you could say. But
you are not being truthful here.
When I posted the issues that started this thread, I waited WEEKS AND WEEKS.
As soon as I e-mailed Judit at BDS the errors were fixed THE NEXT DAY.
Microsoft Route = no result in weeks
BDS Route = immediate fix
So please, do not say contacting BDS adds 4 days!!
The bottom line is, your method does not produce any results. You can talk
and talk all you like on here and make excuses, but it just doesn't work
Chris.
At the end of the day, until BDS learn to wake the heck up and add new
channels that are heavily advertised to customers, your problems will not go
away. If I were your bosses, I'd terminate their contract.
Viewers see these ads for new channels, and tune into MCE to watch them.
BDS see these ads for new channels, completely ignore them and forget to add
them to MCE!
It's great isn't it.
| Quote: | CJ if you would like to go into deep details about the issues you are
angry
about let me know. I would be more than happy to contact you off-line and
|
As above.
The new ITV and Sky channels still do not appear in the Guide. Truly
pathetic. (Yes, I am still angry, sorry. Do you know how much my MCE PC
cost me??!!)
By the way, is there currently a way to report the errors with an integrated
Headend ID and other data directly from the MCE interface? You seemed to be
implying in another post that there is?
--
Thanks.
CJSnet
(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.) |
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CJSnet
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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"Robert Schlabbach" <robert_s@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:OnbR7BA5FHA.2888@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | "CJSnet" <usenet@TEETHthe-simpson.tv> wrote in message
news:e3toBU94FHA.3908@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
When I posted the issues that started this thread, I waited
WEEKS AND WEEKS.
As soon as I e-mailed Judit at BDS the errors were fixed
THE NEXT DAY.
CJS, (I think your name is Chris, too, so I'll use your initials to avoid
confusion) - how do you know that your e-mail to Judit had anything to do
with the timing of the fix?
|
Because we were in e-mail communication with each other and she said, 'okay
I have fixed it, please try the download tomorrow'.
| Quote: | From what I understand, the processes are so that it takes a couple of
days
for a fix to be "checked in". If that is true, it is IMPOSSIBLE that your
e-mail led to the fix the next day.
|
What you understand is based on what Chris has been saying, which in reality
is not how it happens.
| Quote: | Instead, it may indeed have been as Chris said: Your reports _had_ been
received and were checked in. When you e-mailed Judit, she looked it up
and
found that the fix would go live the next day, so that's what she told
you.
So your e-mail did *NOT* trigger the fix, it would have gone live the next
day anyway.
|
Sorry, that's not what she said. She didn't even know about the many many
issues.
| Quote: | The bottom line is, your method does not produce any results.
The bottom line is that you CANNOT KNOW if your method affected the
process
in ANY way. Only someone at Microsoft or BDS could know for sure. While I
|
Um, only I can, because she told me herself. Sorry to disappoint you or
blow apart your theory. Chris is, for reasons known to himself, not being
entirely accurate about the way it all works. There IS a MUCH quicker route
to fixing guide issues. E-mail BDS. They don't even ask for a headend ID.
| Quote: | don't really want to encourage you to uselessly increase the workload to
BDS anymore, maybe you might want to ask Judit again if it was your e-mail
report that resulted in the fix, or if the fix was already in the system
to
go live the next day.
If it turns out to be the latter, come back, apologize to Chris, and NEVER
EVER e-mail BDS directly again.
|
Please don't talk to me in that manner. I haven't been spoken to like that
since I was 5 years old by my mother.
--
Thanks.
CJSnet
(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.) |
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Stuart
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject:
Re: EPG Error Submissions ignored by MS/Broadcasting Dataser |
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""Chris Hill [MSFT]"" <a-chill@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:r9DQEKb4FHA.3220@TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl...
| Quote: | Thank you for the information. Since there are several digital Sat feeds
can you tell me which of the following you are refering to?
Digital Satellite - unmapped line-up for the UK
ASTRA 28.2 East (Sky Digital) Free Services Lineup
ASTRA 19.2 East Free Services Lineup
Sky Digital BBC Scot/ITV Grampian
Once I have that I can file a bug and get the resolution process started.
Chris Hill
Windows Media
|
There's your problem, right there.
Anyone with a TV in the UK would not need to ask what platform those
channels were on. You are trying to do this relying 100% on bug reports and
0% on local knowledge and common sense.
You need a UK based EPG stringer to sort this stuff out. Someone in the UK
with a basic knowldge of broadcasting would cure 99% of these problems in a
few hours.
Stuart |
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